G'day, I have been offered a Stohr (WF1 style ) for a reasonable sum. I am posting this in the general discussions because I am not married to a
Stohr and would consider other options like Radical etc
First Q, What other options besides Radical, West and Palmer are there ?
I'd like to better understand some aspects of ownership, maintainence and running costs before engaging myself in discussions.
I do about 40 track events per year. current ride is a Porsche GT3. I plan to do Track days and no racing.
Some Q's
How often do you change tires and brakes? Do give an indication of my driving pace, my GT3 runs though a set of tires every 4th weekend. Brakes last about 8
-10 weekends.
Why do you need to rebuild engines so often? I track Bikes with the same engines and don't really do much more than regular upkeep. what gives?
Please feel free to school me on any other things I may need to know.
J
Ownership and running costs
| Author | Comment | |||
|---|---|---|---|---|
 javelin |
Ownership and running costs |
Lead | ||
|
Registered Member
Posts: 3 09/14/09 16:08:21 |
Last Edited By: javelin 09/14/09 16:35:27.
Edited 2 times.
|
|||
|
|
||||
|
NASA racer |
#1 | |||
|
Registered Member
Posts: 1545 09/14/09 16:23:52 |
It really depends what you want to do with it and how hard you drive it. Is it going to be a track-day car or race car?
Brake pads could last you a season (or more), tires could last you a couple of weekends or one day depending on what you're doing (I paid $900 for my last mounted and balanced set of Goodyears). You could run a safe stock motor and it might last a season or even more, you could do $15k nationals motors that might last a weekend so that's probably one of the biggest expense variables. It was with my racing, everything else was predictable. The stresses of really pushing these motors in a high lateral-G environment (for which they were never designed) and at revs that are beyond what manufacturers designed them for is where the motors get so delicate. Eating valves and running out of oil seem to be the biggies. If you get a really good oiling system and a well installed very stock motor and you never over rev it or miss shifts, your engine life can and probably will be very good (my stock Hayabusa was extremely reliable). If you go for that last .5hp and run it at 13,000RPM every shift then it's life is probably going to be short and spectacular. Fuel is expensive and crashing it can be expensive (bodywork and suspension components are pricy) but you'd find normal parts and consumables cheaper than Porsche parts and consumables. The kind of heavy-wear parts like tires and brakes don't wear out as much due to the light weight. Tires tend to heat-cycle out rather than wearing out (say 10-12 heat cycles). It's the nature of the tires they use to be sprint racing oriented so they are designed for that purpose rather than longer stints and a heavy car. I found my biggest costs to be motors (by far) and then tires and everything else was behind that and things like entry fees and travel exceeded my small wear parts costs. The only time motors weren't an issue was when I ran a well dry-sumped BONE STOCK motor and that is the way to go for longetivity. I saw a 5.5 second difference between drivers in a WF1 so unless you are at lap-record pace, needing that last bit of power is unlikely until you can drive it to that level. Setting up and maintaining a WF1 (careful nut and bolt checks, careful alignment, inspections and overall preparation) are important. They are much more delicate cars than GT3s and have to be maintained as such. They're light and easy to work on, pain in the butt to load on trailers.
Pete Fowler
Stohr 01D chassis 017 |
|||
|
|
||||
|
javelin |
#2 | |||
|
Registered Member
Posts: 3 09/14/09 16:38:14 |
Thanks mate, I plan to just have fun tracking and no racing.
|
|||
|
|
||||
|
NASA racer |
#3 | |||
|
Registered Member
Posts: 1545 09/15/09 14:45:04 |
Oh, another thing I forgot about why the bike engines have a harder life in a car is the weight of the car and the power being transmitted through two fat
10" wide slicks.
Highly recommend a good stock motor with a really good dry-sump and the engine issue shouldn't be bad. Another thing with running a stock engine is you can "plug and play" salvage engines which are not particularly expensive to purchase.
Pete Fowler
Stohr 01D chassis 017 |
|||
|
|
||||
|
pleonard2000 |
#4 | |||
|
Registered Member
Posts: 74 09/15/09 16:45:12 |
40 track events! Geez .. Ironman! I bought my Radical last year, and it had a bone stock GSX-R1000 motor in it that had already been through 2 race seasons. I put another race season on it (about 10 races), along with a dozen track days or so. That motor would still be working fine if I hadn't put it in my trailer one night when the temp hit 12 deg F and I didn't have enough antifreeze. I put another stock motor in it, and hope (and expect) that it will last the season. It's good for 13.2k rpm, but I shift at 12.5 or lower all the time (torque drops off at 12.7 anyway), but it is still very hard service ... 1150 pounds always at full throttle and 10k - 12k rpm. A used motor, with a Power Commander and a couple extras, installed by a pro mechanic, cost me about $5k. My motor won't require rebuilds or refreshening or anything like that, since it's stock, hopefully. I go through a set of tires about every weekend (2 practices, 2 qualys, 2 races) .. and I buy used takeoffs for $300 per set. Brake pads lasted many seasons, and I haven't broken enything except the front of the car when I had an accident. Body work cost a couple thousand, and I took that opportunity to paint the whole car for $3k. Oh, wait .. I just spun a chain and had to replace the chain ($200) and sprockets ($150). Not sure why that happened (overtightened, probably), but expect a chain to only last 1/2 season (or, at least, replace it before it breaks). I change oil every event or two, and I use Mobil 4t that costs about $14/qt, so an oil change is about $100 with filter. I use about 25 gal of fuel on a race weekend, and use $6/gal race fuel. Getting new tires mounted and balanced, and then repairing the wheels after the stupid tire place bends them, is a regular expense. I did spend about $700 to rebuild the shocks, but they were 7 years old and due for it. This shouldn't come up often. Then there are the track fees, and of course safety gear. A fire suit, helmet, HANS, shoes and gloves is s big chink of change ($3k?) And as you know, transportation costs, hotel, food and drink, trading time at the track for trips with the wife, etc, amount to as much as everything else! I think these sports racers can be economical to run, relatively speaking. I would recommend a stock motor if you don't have national championship aspirations (you'll still be faster than any road car, anyway). And if you don't bend up the body or parts, your remaining costs will be surprisingly low. The Radical would probably be sturdier and more durable than a Stohr, but a Stohr will be faster (assuming same motors and if you were to drive both at the
limit). The Stohrs look freakin amazing, too. The Radical looks awesome, until it sits alongside a Stohr. This may be personal bias, but then, I own a Radical!
Paul Leonard
|
|||
|
|
||||
|
Feffman |
#5 | |||
|
Registered Member
Posts: 81 09/17/09 05:48:39 |
Javelin:
One thing to think about is the organizations you do track days with. The Stohr, West, etc. being single seaters may not be allowed with certian groups since they may need an instructor to sign off on you. I found a very nice Stohr and opted for the Radical SR3 instead because of this issue. After running street cars (Lotus Esprit V8 and Cadillac CTS-V) on the track for several years, the Radical, in my opinion, is easier since I don't have to worry about it getting me home from a track event. I'm not convinced it's any more expensive to operate becuase the parts for my street car took a beating requiring maintenance as well. An idle-air-control valve on the Lotus ($350 - Bosch part) required removal of the intake plenum, the front wheel bearings on the CTS-V were $550 each side. Since I used R compound tires with an extra set of wheels and track specific track pads for the street cars, the tire and brake costs were a wash. Since I don't have to swap out pads/tires any more from track days to street, the work is a bit less too. Once you drive a Stohr, Radical, West, etc. on the track, you'll ask yourself why you didn't do this sooner. Feel free to ring me at (314) 249-3770 if I can offer further assistance. Feff |
|||
|
|
||||
|
javelin |
#6 | |||
|
Registered Member
Posts: 3 09/27/09 15:15:56 |
Thanks guys, really appreciate the deatailed responses. I will have a chance to tryout a Radical as well as the Stohr and will make up my mind then.
I like the fact that the radical allows you to have a passenger. So I can show my wife what all the fuss is about. I am from Kingston Ont ( Canada ) |
|||
|
|
||||
|
Matt Graham |
#7 | |||
|
Registered Member
Posts: 415 09/27/09 17:42:53 |
Javelin,
There are currently 5 of us here in Ottawa with Radical SR3s. We do plenty of track days and a little racing. The Stohr is a great platform, and a RIDICULOUSLY fast car. I don't know that there are any Radicals that can touch it in terms of performance. If you'd like to take a drive up to Ottawa, I could introduce you to the business end of an SR3, and if you're willing and available, even get you a ride or two at Calabogie. We can give you an idea of the running costs, the trials and tribulations we've been through, and why each of us chose the car we did. I'm not sure you can really go wrong either way (Stohr, Radical, or similar) as they're all a ton of fun. But choosing the right car for what you're going to be using it for can really enhance the experience. -Matt |
|||
|
|
||||
|
fokoracer |
#8 | |||
|
Registered Member
Posts: 1 10/18/09 21:23:26 |
Having owned both a Rad Sr3 and now a STOHR, I'd say practically speaking, if its just for track days... the Radical is more fun (can carry passengers). If
you want to race and want to be somewhere near the front (at least in SCCA), then the STOHR is your car. In my mind this is a slam dunk easy decision.
Fabian |
|||
|
|
||||
|
Jake Latham |
#9 | |||
|
Registered Member
Posts: 723 10/20/09 11:31:23 Moderator |
So I'll chime in as well, having owned a Radical Prosport and a 1st gen Stohr. Some stream-of-consciousness here:
Either choice is a great one, just slightly different focus. Excellent advice above from everybody. As the others have relayed, the Stohr is possibly a bit more finicky in terms of that last little bit of maintenance. I'm in my first year with the Stohr, but by the time I sold my Radical (4 years), there were times I didn't even take it out of the trailer between races. The Radical is definitely slower, and far less physical to drive. Plus, being about 30% as stiffly sprung, it's more comfortable, and will be at home on worse tracks than the Stohr is. I think it's more fun too, since the car moves around more. Both cars make anything with doors seem like big, heavy traffic pylons. Parts availability for Stohr is great, since they always have what you need, easy to get on the phone, etc. At least for my Prosport, it was a bit more of a process. Matt says it's easy to get bits for his SR3, since the guys in Nevada keep a big inventory. I'm not finding that there's a big difference in terms of easy-to-maintain between the two cars. Both have a few jobs that suck, but mostly it's easy as can be. I find I can't get the rear decklid off of my Stohr without help though, but I could with the Radical. The Prosport Radical doesn't go through brakes as quickly, since you can't brake as hard. Similar on tires. Not sure how that would translate to the SR3, which is 3-500# or so heavier than the Prosport. Big ditto on keeping the engines stock and taking it slightly easy on the revs, especially if you're not racing anybody. In an SR3, you'll have a 'busa of some flavor, which means you'd shift in the 9's somewhere. Dry sump is also an excellent idea, and if you put slightly harder compound tires on, again, since you're not racing, I think your running costs will be extremely low. have fun! I still get out of my car grinning like an idiot after 5 years of running 'em 
-J |
|||
|
|
||||
|
Brownslane.diasio |
You have friends | #10 | ||
|
Registered Member
Posts: 9 10/26/09 17:16:17 |
Javelin, regardless of which car you choose (I recommend the Radical), you have friends nearby to assist. Ottawa is not far away, and if you purchase a
Radical, lots of experienced guys with the same or similar carrs to share with you. If you look west a little bit, I can assist you with mechanical support,
fabrications, setup, etc. I just actually purchased an SR4 to add to my SR "collection", and I now have a business association with an aftermarket
manufacturer of Radical replacement parts. So you now would have a local source for parts for Radicals, lots of support, and frankly, a GREAT track-day car.
Definitely less quick than a Stohr, but a lot less maintenance to perform. Running the Wests, we estimate 10 hours of maintenance for each hour on the
track...and that does not include any damage repairs. For the Radical, Jake sometimes didn't even take it out of the trailer between races. So there is
quite a difference between cars right there. The Radical is going to be easier to get "close to the edge" in; while ultimately quicker, the Stohr
will not tolerate any mis-cues....you'll be "in the fence". Once set up, a Radical can run a whole season without suspension re-working. The
Stohr should be set up every event. A Radical is set up much softer, allowing the primary tuning required for optimum performance at different tracks being
primarily tire pressures, wings and shock settings. This is easy-peasy !!
If you wish to talk further about this, feel free to call me at my office @ 1-800-832-8986 Best wishes, Tom Owen |
|||
|
|
||||
|
Jake Latham |
#11 | |||
|
Registered Member
Posts: 723 10/26/09 19:31:41 Moderator |
So, splitting hairs a bit, but barring first year issues, I'm not expecting the Stohr to take significantly more setup time than the Radical. It never
changed alignments or cornerweights between sessions or races, unless I had made adjustments at the track. I didn't have to touch the toe all year, and the
camber never changed when I didn't monkey with ride heights. So, I think the claims of the Stohr's "fidgetyness" are greatly overstated.
Also, I don't think the Stohr is any more knife-edge. Certainly if you get too sideways, the tunnels stall and you're toast, but I've found you can go up to and beyond the limit without it biting, it just has much higher limits than the Radical. In some respects it's easier to drive, especially turn-in/trail braking. To use a skiing analogy, you drive the car a bit more "carving" your turns, rather than sliding around them. Cheers! -J |
|||
|
|
||||
|
Brownslane.diasio |
I stand Corrected, Sir | #12 | ||
|
Registered Member
Posts: 9 10/27/09 07:54:05 |
Thanks for the clarification, Jake. My point about more set up time is really premised around the need for spring rate changes with the tracks we would run up
here. We increase spring rates about 30% from Mosport top Shannonville, split the difference for Calibogey, run similar settings for the Glen....the Radical is
much more compliant and you can run similar spring rates for all the tracks, and primarily just play with rebound settings. Every time you mess with springs,
the whole car needs to be reset. I should have explained myself better.
I do agree that neither car changes its settings unless you hit something. And that the Stohr is a pretty stiff chassis, so repeatable settings are easy. My experience (limited) with the West is that these cars (Wests, Stohrs) are to the point where they are beginning to exceed the limits of the design...that is, you are seeing suspension failures with long-used rear lower A-arms (seen one fail) and rod ends (had one fail). The exceedingly high limits of these cars are pushing components to their material limits. Because of this, arms, rod ends, all suspension pieces need to be "life-cycled" and replaced at intervals to ensure you do not experience a failure. The Radical is not that punishing to suspension, hence they will be much less likely to break parts, or at least, they have a longer life-cycle. Javelin, are you still around? Tom |
|||
|
|
||||
|
SR3 WTB |
My two cents... | #13 | ||
|
Registered Member
Posts: 20 11/04/09 22:03:36 |
Brownslane wrote:For the most part I would have to agree with your "experience" Tom relative to the First Gen Stohrs (as originally built) and early West cars. The WF1, which is what is being considered here, and the newer West cars have dramatically enhanced suspensions featuring more robust components. Read some of Michael Scully Posts (MVS) to see how his WF1 has faired this season the track records he has crushed. FWIW, our First Gen Stohr has been outfitted with newer WF1 uprights, suspension components, and other upgrades and we're having a blast with the car. As others have correctly stated, the Radical is better suited for track days (love the passenger capacity of the SRs) and/or enduros and the Stohr/West cars for racing. I would also say that it would be hard for me/most to switch to a Radical after driving a Stohr.
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass...but about learning to
"Dance" in the rain; "winners never quit and quitters never win!" GBA!
 STOHR 01D, chassis #23
|
|||
|
|
||||
Quick Reply
Click on Sponsor's logo to visit their website
